Advent Next Theological Podcast

Canonicity of Scripture (Dr. John C. Peckham)

Welcome back to Advent Next a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week our guest is once again Dr. John Peckham, professor of systematic theology at Andrews University. If you haven’t checked out our last podcast with him, please do so it’s a fantastic discussion on his book Theodicy of Love where we talk about one of the biggest philosophical issues facing us as Christians, which is how do we understand the problem of evil in world if we do indeed serve a good and just God. Today, however, we’re tackling another difficult topic, which is “can we trust the bible?” More specifically, and here comes a new word for many of us, the “canonicity of scripture,” or in other words “who wrote the Bible and can I trust that what is written is true, valid and authoritative? Why should I trust it?” Some parts of our discussion might require you to pause, digest or relisten, but we promise it is soooo worth it! Before we get started, we want to thank the Adventist Learning Community for making this program possible. If you’re not already following us on Facebook, Instagram or Youtube, be sure to find us at the handle @adventnext. My Cohost today is Michelle Odinma. You can find her at the handle @michelleodinmamusic. I’m your host Kendra Arsenault and this is Advent Next.

 

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

 

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

 

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Kingdom Values & Unique Callings

Welcome back to Advent Next a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week our guest is Pastor David Franklin, lead pastor of Miracle City Church and project innovator. Today we are discussing how kingdom values have an impact on more than just individual believers and their personal faith, but kingdom values are supposed to benefit the community at large. We also discuss his personal journey of faith and answer questions on how a person can continue to affirm God’s call in their life even during difficult times when the light seems to wan and we are falsely made to believe that following God was a mistake. Thanks again to the Adventist Learning Community for making this program possible. If you’re not already following us on Facebook, Instagram or Youtube, be sure to find us at the handle @adventnext. I’m your host Kendra Arsenault and this is Advent Next.

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

How Does Diet Impact the Enviornment (Dr. Rahel Wells)

Advent Next is a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week we are continuing our conversation with Dr. Rahel Wells professor of Biblical Studies at Andrews University. This week we are exploring questions regarding how the human diet impacts the environment and Biblical ideals for the human-animal relationship. If you’re not already following us on Facebook, Instagram or Youtube, be sure to find us at the handle Advent Next. This week our guest is Kaleb Eisele, the editor for a storytelling platform called Humans of Adventism. You can follow his work at the instagram handle @humansofadventism or @kalebeisele. I’m your host Kendra Arsenault and this is Advent Next.

 

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

A Biblical Ethic Towards Animals (Dr. Rahel Wells)

Welcome back to Advent Next a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week our guest is Dr. Rahel Wells Professor of Biblical Studies at Andrews University. This week we are exploring questions related to the human-animal relationship from a biological and biblical standpoint. How does God relate to animals and can we derive a biblical ethic towards our fellow earth dwellers based on the observation in scripture? If you’re not already following us on Facebook, Instagram or Youtube, be sure to find us at the handle Advent Next. This week our guest is Kaleb Eisele, the editor for a storytelling platform called Humans of Adventism. You can follow his work at the instagram handle @humansofadventism or @kalebeisele. I’m your host Kendra Arsenault and this is Advent Next.

 

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

Moral Philosophy, Jesus and Politics (Dr. Nicholas Miller)

Welcome back to Advent Next a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week we are continuing our conversation with our guest Dr. Nicholas Miller professor of Church History at Andrews University. Last week we ended our discussion talking about the history of the separation of church and state, and development of moral philosophy so be sure to check out last week’s discussion if you haven’t since it serves as the foundation for this week’s episode. Today we are exploring some modern applications of moral philosophy and what faith in the public sphere looks like on the practical level. We’ll have some recommended readings for you at the end of this episode so be sure to listen to the end if you want resources with more information. We want to thank the Adventist Learning Community for making this program possible. If you’re not already following us on Facebook, Instagram or Youtube, be sure to find us at the handle Advent Next. I’m your host Kendra Arsenault and this is Advent Next.

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

Miller Master Episode 2

[00:00:00] Nick Miller: [00:00:00] But I also see the problem on the right wing, which claims to be Christian, and they have, should have an understanding of both the fallenness of human nature, but the equality of human nature. And there what I see is a division of people into a inside trusted group, and then the other, the outside group. And the inside trusted group, which is like us, white Americans, especially that are rich and owned businesses. Well, we should be free and deregulated and, and any constraints on us removed because we're good people. We're Americans. We would never do wrong, right? You can trust our military and our corporations, and we overlook the fact that we all have fallen human natures and we're going to misuse that power.

[00:00:41] So there's this inside trusted group that's to trusted, but then the other is the outsiders, whether it be the immigrants or the Mexicans or the Muslims, we can't trust them. And we won't even extend them fundamental human right, because we view them as fundamentally different, lesser, not fully made in the image of [00:01:00] God.

[00:01:01] Kendra Arsenault: [00:01:01] Welcome back to Advent Next, a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week we are continuing our conversation with Dr. Nicholas Miller, professor of church history at Andrews University. Last week, we ended our discussion talking about the history of the separation of church and state and the development of moral philosophy.

[00:01:21] So be sure to check out last week's discussion if you haven't, since it serves as the foundation for this week's episode. Today, we are exploring some modern applications of moral philosophy and what faith in the public sphere looks like on a practical level. We'll have some recommended readings for you at the end of the episode, so be sure to listen to the end if you want resources for more information. We want to thank the Adventist learning community for making this program possible.

[00:01:46] If you're not already following us on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube, be sure to find us at the handle Advent Next. I'm your host Kendra Arsenault, and this is Advent Next.

[00:01:59] As you're talking, I'm [00:02:00] thinking maybe the audience or, you know, when they think about moral philosophy and Christianity, like the first thing that they think about is human sexuality and they, they tend to think about how are we going to, you know, that Christian, what does Christianity have to say about that?

[00:02:15] I feel like that's the hot topic. That's the big issue of the day. But putting that aside, what are some, you know, places within the common square that the morality of Christianity could really be seen as, as you know, being groundbreaking or are actually doing, real good to the community at large.

[00:02:34] Nick Miller: [00:02:34] And maybe we should define some of our terms here a little bit because you use moral philosophy and then you use Christian philosophy. And, I actually think that Christian philosophy should draw on moral philosophy. But some people think Christian philosophy, you would get it from the Bible.

[00:02:51] And then we take our biblical views of morality and bring them to society. And I guess I want to emphasize again. Moral [00:03:00] philosophy; Ellen white actually says that moral philosophy is one of the three things that our students should especially study in school. She says they should study moral philosophy, the Bible and physical education.

[00:03:12] And Adventists know what the Bible is, of course. And they know, they think they know what physical education is, but who's had a class in moral philosophy? Not, not many of us. And most Adventists reading this fairly quickly, say moral philosophy, the Bible, oh, she means morality is taught in the Bible, but actually she doesn't.

[00:03:30] In 19th century, moral philosophy was a term of art that meant morality as understood and arrived at through a source, through the examination of general revelation. In other words, not scripture, and it wasn't meant to be contrary to scripture, but it would supplement scripture and complement scripture.

[00:03:48] And so it was, a field of thinking about right and wrong. Yeah. And so natural law is a phrase that some of [00:04:00] your, our hearers may have heard before. And we usually connect it with the Catholic church for some reason, because it existed before the Catholic church and there was a very strong teaching of the natural law and the Protestant world for many hundreds of years.

[00:04:15] Natural law is part of what I would call moral philosophy. It's the notion that there are larger laws of right and wrong above the human laws that we write in our legislative books. And lot of people are resistant to the notion of natural law, precisely for what you earlier alluded to with. They think it has to do with outlawing certain sexual practices, and it's just used as a kind of tool of modern Puritans to impose their sexual views. But it really is actually a very critical idea that has played a central role in the 20th century. Just to illustrate, you may have heard of the Nuremberg trials.

[00:04:55] Kendra Arsenault: [00:04:55] Yeah.

[00:04:56] Nick Miller: [00:04:56] Bringing Nazi leaders to account for the [00:05:00] mass killings and genocide of the, of the Jews and other peoples in World War II. Well, the problem with the nerve that the Nuremberg prosecutors were facing. Was that everything that Germany did, the German leaders, was actually legal...

[00:05:14] Kendra Arsenault: [00:05:14] In their country.

[00:05:15] Nick Miller: [00:05:15] In their country under, and what other laws apply to Germany then the laws that the German parliament and legislature create, right?

[00:05:23] And so how can you try someone for actions they've taken that were entirely lawful. They were following orders that were given by people who were carrying out the lawfully enacted laws of the land. So it's a, it's kind of a conundrum. How can you prosecute them for that? And so the prosecutors had to rely, even though it was growing into disfavor at that point, among the intelligentsia.

[00:05:51] Of notions of a higher laws and of justice that went against the universal understandings of [00:06:00] humanity. And they may not have used the word natural law, but that's essentially exactly what it is, right? That there's something in our human nature that says, when we see a innocence being killed for no reason that we can say that's wrong, whether it's illegal under some statute or not.

[00:06:19] And so, any, any movement to bring reformation. So not just the Nuremberg trials, but the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King Jr letter from the Birmingham jail: he appeals to natural law as the justification for the civil disobedience. It takes place, right? A human law that is contrary to a higher law to a divine law is no law at all.

[00:06:43] And therefore we are appropriate in resisting it. So this idea of natural law is much broader than just particular sexual practices. And in fact, the whole civil rights movement, even the, even the LGBT community, which makes human rights arguments. [00:07:00] It was really doing it on the basis of what? Of this underlying conceptions of natural law, which,

[00:07:08] Kendra Arsenault: [00:07:08] Of humanity and kind of the basic rights that are enacted for every living being.

[00:07:12] Nick Miller: [00:07:12] Based on universal principles of justice and fairness and equality. That's right.

[00:07:17] Kendra Arsenault: [00:07:17] That's so interesting. And I, when you're talking to this, I'm thinking of, a slide I'd seen,  last semester on, I think it was to the faith and science council, and they were giving a talk on kind of the Christian relationship with the ecosystem and ecology and how it, there's this graph where the more you know, the more Bible believing you are, the less you believe in, like, conserving the planet or something like global warming,

[00:07:44] Nick Miller: [00:07:44] Stewardship. Environmentalism.

[00:07:45] Kendra Arsenault: [00:07:45] Right. But it's interesting because it should be kind of,

[00:07:48] Nick Miller: [00:07:48] The other way around, right?

[00:07:50] Kendra Arsenault: [00:07:50] And you know, but when you see, like in the media, and especially when you see the right wing media that's, that's particularly more kind of Christian voice, or they [00:08:00] kind of really brand themselves as the Christian voice, really downplaying things that in the moral philosophy realm should be something that a Christian would consider, like global warming or human rights on immigration or, different things that seem to fall into the moral philosophy realm.

[00:08:19] Nick Miller: [00:08:19] So, yeah, that's that, that's a good observation and it's going to force us to look a little more closely at what moral philosophy actually is and what natural law is. And when, especially when people say natural law, they think, you know, you go out to nature and you see the way animals are acting and that's you know, that would be a pretty bad law. Cause animals do lots of really bad things.

[00:08:44] Kendra Arsenault: [00:08:44] Like, they eat their children or,

[00:08:46] Nick Miller: [00:08:46] Cannibalism and incest and all those things can be found in nature. But it's not, that's not the argument. The argument is, is that the way nature is designed is that it reveals certain ends and purposes [00:09:00] that there's a teleology to it. That a good example is the eye, right? The eye is created not to listen, but to see, and all its features are designed to that end. And then the whole organism itself, exists to, well, if you look at the lower animals to procreate and to flourish and they inhabit their niches and habitats, and some of them keep down the pests or they keep down the weeds or, right, there's a functioning that happens.

[00:09:38] And if you look at the human, you can begin to see the ends and purposes of a human right to enjoy life, asociate so, in society, companionship is very important. The exercise of creativity, there are all these ends to being a human that people realize are important [00:10:00] to human flourishing. And in looking at those things, you can say that to arbitrarily step in and prevent certain humans from flourishing in that way is wrong. Right? It becomes a moral question that we should be guided by, and so the ultimate location, if you will, of the natural law isn't out in nature as it is in human nature. As we can look at ourselves and we see those things that make for a flourishing life, and we see the intuitions we have about moral issues, about torturing babies, for instance, right?

[00:10:38] We all kind of know that that's wrong. We should care for them and take care of them. And that, that from this study of human nature, the intuitions we have about the equality of humanity, that these things are also supported by reason and other beliefs. But that, that the study of human nature was a main [00:11:00] place that the ancients and the reformers all the way up to the 19th and 20th century thought was a very important thing to understand, to understand right and wrong.

[00:11:11] But in the 20th century. We've moved away from seeing human nature as anything essential or given or static. We view it very much as malleable and changing and who's to say what it will be tomorrow versus what it was yesterday. And this is a particularly modern philosophical conceit, I would argue, that has some real problems to it. Because, well, we've talked about gender issues and human nature. The Bible talks about men and woman being in the image of God being somehow fundamental to human nature, right? There's something important about the feminine, important about the masculine, and you don't have to believe the Bible to believe that because if you don't [00:12:00] have a man and a woman, you don't have a continuation of the human race, right?

[00:12:03] There's something fundamental about human nature in its sexual differentiation, gender differentiation, that isn't the same as say something like race, right? We view race as as somehow important and it differentiates us, but race is a historical accident. A development that you know, the first humans were all of the same race, and then they developed over time and it didn't make them more or less human. It just differentiated them externally in superficial ways that we need to learn, not to treat with great difference.

[00:12:37] Right. But gender was there at the beginning. It was fundamental, but modern philosophers and scientists seem to want to treat gender like it's . Race, right. And that, and if you believe in the theory of evolution, there's a certain logic to it.

[00:12:55] There was a time when whatever humanity was before it was human, didn't [00:13:00] have gender, and then it evolved into two genders. And maybe we're going to three genders or five genders. But that's hard for a Christian to accept. And it's also hard for someone who takes biology seriously to accept.

[00:13:12] Kendra Arsenault: [00:13:12] I think, and I want you to continue with your thought, and just to kind of interject on that point, I think kind of the apprehension behind, okay, let's not talk about gender is because the way that sometimes, the differentiation of gender leads to inequality. So looking for ways to say, okay, this is different.

[00:13:31] Thereby we're going to, you know, make sure that they don't have access to certain privileges, rather than you know, seeing them as fundamentally equal.

[00:13:41] Nick Miller: [00:13:41] As fundamentally equal. The problem with that is that if you don't differentiate gender, it can lead to even greater inequality. And so an example I would give is, you know, most men are physically stronger than most women.

[00:13:55] They're more aggressive than most women. It's not you know, [00:14:00] there's an overlap, right? Some women are more aggressive than many men, but as a general rule, that's the case. So, when we say we're going to treat them just the same, which means well, coed dorms in public universities, coed units in the military, give them equal access to the same spaces, mix in some alcohol because they're adults.

[00:14:27] And lots of things go wrong and they don't go wrong equally. In other words, there's a higher level of assaults in the last few years in public universities and in the military, and it's not a higher level of assaults, equally spread among men and women. Right? It's 90 to 95% of the time its's the women being assaulted by the men.

[00:14:55] So in ignoring gender differences and pretending they don't [00:15:00] exist, we're actually doing a disservice to those, the differences that do exist in genders, and we actually hurting people and harming people through it. And so under the law, we have this, this very important principle that equal treatment doesn't mean treating everything the same.

[00:15:20] It means treating similarly situated things the same. And if things are not similarly situated, then to treat them equally may in fact involve treating them a little bit differently. A kind of funny example is if you go to sports stadiums and you see men's and women's restrooms, and it seems like they have the same number of bathrooms in each side, and so that's equal, but if you look at the lines right.

[00:15:49] The lines are out the door for the women. So if we were really going to treat them equally, we would put twice as many restroom stalls and the women's side so that they had equal access to [00:16:00] them, not just an equal number to them.

[00:16:02] Kendra Arsenault: [00:16:02] I'd be for that.

[00:16:04] Nick Miller: [00:16:04] I'd suspect you might.

[00:16:05] Kendra Arsenault: [00:16:05] Yeah. No, I think that that's a really great point.

[00:16:08] Nick Miller: [00:16:08] So we want equal opportunity, don't we?

[00:16:10] Kendra Arsenault: [00:16:10] Right.

[00:16:11] Nick Miller: [00:16:11] But to insist on equal outcome. And this is, the scientists of the social, sociologists have observed that in countries that create more and more equal opportunity, there's actually a greater and greater differentiation as women are free to choose the professions they're really interested in, and men are free to choose those they're interested in.

[00:16:37] So in the Scandinavian countries where there's an incredible push for gender sameness, I'd even say. Nursing, it has a higher proportion of women than they do in America. And technology and computer programmers are, you know, very highly filled with men. So we need to care [00:17:00] about equality of opportunity and women who want to be computer programmers should be able to, and vice versa.

[00:17:07] But we don't want to insist on the quality of outcome when there may in fact be genuine gender differences in interest and preference. And also in terms of I'm not in favor of equalizing the draft, for instance, sending all our men and women or young ladies and boys off to fight. Right? I think you lose something important in your society when you take mothers away from children.

[00:17:34] In the, in the same way that fathers sometimes have to be removed from children when they go off to war.

[00:17:39] Kendra Arsenault: [00:17:39] So basically what you're saying is like when you look at, not looking for equality of outcome, for example, there need to be 50 male nurses and 50 female nurses when, if you allowed them to choose freely, there might just be 25.

[00:17:53] Nick Miller: [00:17:53] 70 30. 75 25.

[00:17:55] Kendra Arsenault: [00:17:55] Right.

[00:17:56] Nick Miller: [00:17:56] And this discussion is actually I think important for [00:18:00] our church. You and I are in favor of women in ministry and we need more women in ministry, and I'm not even talking about the ordination issue. I'm just talking about women in ministry, which our pioneers were in favor of, and Ellen White said there needed to be more women in ministry.

[00:18:17] And yet I don't think that we should say that means we need to push for a day where it's 50 50. Right. Ministry position is a leadership position, and it seems like, many women in fact, like to have male leaders, ministers, but I do think that they also would want a woman to talk to who was a leader as well.

[00:18:41] But if you look at churches that have stayed biblically conservative and have ordained women ministers, a historically African American churches have done it for a hundred years and contrary to what many conservatives say, it doesn't automatically lead to ordaining LGBT persons, right? These are. [00:19:00] Black churches that are very strong position on, on sexuality.

[00:19:05] They have ordained women leaders, have had them for a hundred years, but in those churches, only about three or 4% of them have ordained women pastors. And I think some of it could have to do with prejudice and that it would be nicer to see a higher number. Maybe if you'd get up to 10% or 10 or 15% would be great.

[00:19:24] Yeah. But I don't think you also need to say the perfect world is going to have 50 50. I think it's an unrealistic expectation given the gender preferences.

[00:19:35] Kendra Arsenault: [00:19:35] That if you just kind of let it, you know, let people choose their professions on their own, you'd already see kind of this differentiation happening amongst themselves. We don't necessarily have to regulate it.

[00:19:45] Nick Miller: [00:19:45] So that you can see there could be a left wing tyranny, right? Sometimes on the right wing, we're not allowing equality of opportunity, and that's tyrannical, but on the left wing, if we insist on the quality of outcome, you're going to have to impose [00:20:00] quotas and force people to accept and take jobs they don't want and right. So there's, we're interested in freedom so that the true underlying traits can be expressed.

[00:20:10] Kendra Arsenault: [00:20:10] I hope that, I mean, I feel like what you're saying is coming across very clearly to me, I hope that our listeners are also understanding the nuances of what's being said as far as you know, that true equal opportunity doesn't always necessarily mean there's going to be an equal outcome.

[00:20:29] And then that actually is a kind of an exhibition of true freedom. We allowed,

[00:20:34] Nick Miller: [00:20:34] True freedom and of the genuine importance of the duality of human nature, right? Women are important. Men are important, and both need to be, they need to have their various traits and characteristics expressed. And if they were all expressed in the same way, then they would be duplicates of each other.

[00:20:54] And that's not what God made.

[00:20:55] Kendra Arsenault: [00:20:55] Right. I guess my next question would be, and I, one of my [00:21:00] questions was going to be, you know, do you think moral philosophy and our lack of participation in that really is affecting our ability to outreach? But you pretty much mentioned that. I guess the question would be, how picayune should we be in our kind of, cause it's hard for a Christian to bring, you know, to say, I'm going to look at this as totally moral philosophy, but they're coming from a Christian biblical framework.

[00:21:21] Things like, that might be human rights issues are things that I think people can say, no, we can, we're against, you know, sex trafficking. We're against, you know, people, doing violence unto others, but things that become smaller in my opinion, like the use of marijuana or other types of things that were legislating in the public square.

[00:21:44] Or it's maybe sometimes we just shift our focus, maybe like. You know, maybe we should be more concerned with, you know regulation on big corporations and what they're doing to the environment rather than maybe some smaller, I wouldn't say less [00:22:00] consequential issues. Like, how does somebody know. What are the battles to get into and which ones are ones that they should probably,

[00:22:10] Nick Miller: [00:22:10] Well,

[00:22:10] Kendra Arsenault: [00:22:10] Leave for another day.

[00:22:10] Nick Miller: [00:22:10] You know, that's a good question, isn't it? It's hard to answer that in the abstract, but those two issues that you talked about could actually be put together, right? Marijuana and big corporations seeking to make money.

[00:22:21] Well. There's not a lot of big corporations involved in marijuana right now, and that's because it's actually still illegal at the federal level. And so big corporations that are operating multi-state, and it's hard to do banking, actually, in the marijuana industry because banks are regulated federally.

[00:22:41] And so there's a lot of cash transactions, even for legal marijuana, which becomes cumbersome and hard to handle in large quantities. But you know, we're talking about natural law being based on human nature. And injuries to human nature are [00:23:00] significant under the natural law, right?  And this was the justification on alcohol issues, right?

[00:23:08] It's, we're looking at the ends of humanity: are people flourishing or not flourishing,

[00:23:12]Kendra Arsenault: [00:23:12] Right.

[00:23:13] Nick Miller: [00:23:13] And you could say, you can point to a concert pianist playing a beautiful Mozart piece on the piano. And you can point to a drunk in a gutter covered with his own vomit. And if you have a purely subjective sense of what ends are, you can say, well, both of them are following their bliss and they are both flourishing as humans.

[00:23:38] But is that really true? Right. And, I think that going back to Aristotle, no, not just the Bible, but the notion of happiness isn't as the, as our, you know, the declaration of independence, the pursuit of happiness under the modern conception of it. The drunk in the gutter covered with his vomit and the concert pianist playing the beautiful [00:24:00] music.

[00:24:00] Well as long as they're both equally happy, they're both equally successful human beings. And this is a suggestion that actually moral philosophy tells you to say no. Look more closely at human nature. Look at what flourishing is. And, we do have to be careful here in terms of paternalism. The government saying what's good for us?

[00:24:25] And yet, and yet we, the government runs schools. It instructs young people, and I would believe that the school should be able to say, this is more about human flourishing, the pianist with a wonderful classical music than the drunk in the gutter. And I would want the school to be able to say, this is not a morally positive approach to your life and this, or some variation.

[00:24:50] We don't care if you play the piano or paint pictures or, you know, but, but something that has to do with human nature flourishing. And I think that that [00:25:00] isn't a inherently religious standard. Right. I think those are standards that human beings of all religious persuasions can come to some agreement on.

[00:25:10] Kendra Arsenault: [00:25:10] Right. And I wonder how much, you know, should we just be using persuasion on certain issues rather than legislation. Cause you know, when it comes to something like going back to the marijuana law, I think there's a lot larger underlying factors that are affecting human flourishing: poverty, overwork, economic situations where you have something like, you know, whether it's alcohol or marijuana or cigarettes or caffeine, or things that people are using to kind of self-medicate their own situation when maybe the underlying problem is just, just poverty, or just not you know, being overworked, being stressed, not having access to some resources,

[00:25:53] Nick Miller: [00:25:53] Or maybe it's both. Right? I mean, and this is the catch 22. I talked about the corporations in marijuana. I didn't kind of [00:26:00] finish the thought, and that was, what about the tobacco companies? And you could say, well, people need to have freedom to choose, but the reality was kids were getting hooked on smoking at 12 13 14 developing a habit, which was very difficult to break and control, and the big corporations were milking people for millions and billions of dollars and shortening their lives by tens of years and bringing them all sorts of diseases.

[00:26:29] Is that really freedom right on either side of that equation and that the freedom that you're talking about is actually often freedom for very wealthy and powerful institutions to use their power and resources to trap poor people in cycles of addiction and abuse that contribute to their poverty, right?

[00:26:56] I mean, there's, and marijuana, look, I'm not an [00:27:00] expert on marijuana, but I've read enough about it to know that it certainly doesn't have a positive effect on people's ambitions. Right. And getting out and doing things. And I think that, at least when we're talking about young people, those under 18, I think we can all agree that coercion needs to happen in those instances.

[00:27:22] We have laws against alcohol use in those instances. And if alcohol wasn't legal today and it was being brought on the market, the FDA would never allow it to be approved. It's far too destructive. It's merely convention and tradition that allows us to put up with the deaths of many times more people per year from alcohol use then died in the twin trade, you know, twin trade towers in 2001 that allows us just to accept it. You know, moral philosophy requires a lot of [00:28:00] education. And there's often the questions of pragmatism. How far can you push things and how far can you help people without them feeling that they're losing their freedoms or being infringed?

[00:28:13] But I think that that, that the far greater risk is allowing corporations to use their muscle and economic might to persuade, to influence, to hook young kids, whether it be on vaping or marijuana or cigarettes, and then lead them into a life where there's been an addiction put into place and a dependence that leads the spiral of poverty, or at least prevents them in part from getting out of it.

[00:28:43] Kendra Arsenault: [00:28:43] I really like that perspective. And I think, you know, there's a beautiful place for like idealism and like what things should ideally be. And unfortunately, I feel like in the, in the pragmatism of it, I feel like in the end, you know, poor people still pay the price [00:29:00] because they're the ones who are criminalized and put into prison and, but the big corporations don't necessarily see those same things.

[00:29:07] So, you know, where we're juggling the moral philosophy. How much do we have to consider pragmatism versus kind of the ideal version of what we think it should be?

[00:29:17] Nick Miller: [00:29:17] So there's a very important part of the natural law tradition that talks about prudential considerations. And this is in Thomas Aquinas, and I'm sure the earlier than that, that you have an ideal set of laws that you'd like to reach.

[00:29:33] But an ideal set of behaviors, but you might actually cause more harm than good by trying to enforce them. Because the law is a very blunt mechanism. You can't be in everyone's rooms and houses all the time, and you would lose far more freedoms  by doing that. And so, you know, there's a calculus in terms of what laws [00:30:00] can practically be enforced. I'm not leading a, an expedition to try to, even though I think our pioneers were right about temperance reform and alcohol, we're just not at a place in our country where putting a lot of effort into that would probably move the dial or the needle as much as you would need to have any impact.

[00:30:19] Actually, sometimes I've wondered, I mean, there are places like counties and villages that have gone dry or cities. And there was an article in Liberty magazine a few years ago by Jennifer Jill Swerzer. Shout out to her, Adventist artist and counselor. And it was in Alaska, and they had all sorts of social problems and beatings and criminal records and drug addiction, and they decided to go dry.

[00:30:47] Well, not sell any alcohol in town limits. And it was sort of an isolated place. So it was hard to kind of, you know, go to the next town to the next County and bring it in. And there was quite a dramatic turnaround in the town in terms of [00:31:00] social issues and people going to school and people taking care of kids and, and the criminal activity dropping.

[00:31:08] So, you know, I've thought, well, here we are in Berrien Springs. Maybe I should get some Andrew's kids and we could make it a dry town,

[00:31:16] Kendra Arsenault: [00:31:16] Village.

[00:31:17] Nick Miller: [00:31:17] Dry village. That's right. But I think you focus on those things where there seems to be an opportunity to change.

[00:31:25] Kendra Arsenault: [00:31:25] That's good

[00:31:25] Nick Miller: [00:31:25] Things for the better.

[00:31:26] Kendra Arsenault: [00:31:26] What would you like to leave our audience here today? Anything that comes to mind that's really kind of pressing on your heart as of late.

[00:31:36] Nick Miller: [00:31:36] Well, maybe I'll reflect back to the book that, I was reading, in the opening and T Wright's book about Paul and about Paul, the Jew who believed that being safe wasn't just about being saved for heaven.

[00:31:54] But it was also very much about being saved for this world and that the kingdom of God wasn't simply in the future, [00:32:00] but it had begun here amongst those who believed in Christ. And as I look at the trajectory of my life, it's taken me years, maybe decades to see the importance of my role as a Christian...

[00:32:15] In the public square and in public issues, not imposing the special revelation truths of, you know, the Sabbath and prayer and faith, but in, but in speaking out and standing for principles of justice and fairness and right, whether that be, and it's not a left or a right issue, it's both. You know?

[00:32:34] And maybe I can end by summarizing. You know, the left wing often gets wrong. Basic human nature issues, gender and sexuality issues. I think they're very confused on it. I think it's leading to terrible public policy in public schools and the military, and we're going to be paying the price for it for a long time.

[00:32:52] But I also see the problem on the right wing, which claims to be Christian and they have a, should have an understanding of both the fallenness of human nature, but the [00:33:00] equality of human nature and there what I see is a division of people into a inside trusted group. And then the other, the outside group. And the inside trusted group, which is like us, white Americans especially, that are rich and own businesses.

[00:33:15] Well, we should be free and deregulated and any constraints on us removed because we're good people. We're Americans. We would never do wrong, right? You can trust our military and our corporations. And we overlook the fact that we all have fallen human natures and we're going to misuse that power in corporations.

[00:33:33] The collapse of 2008 was in good part because of that. So there's this inside trusted group that's too trusted, but then the others, the outsiders, whether it be the immigrants or the Mexicans or the Muslims, or the... no, their bad and dangerous and Mexican immigrants are, you know, criminals and rapists, or the Muslims should be excluded from the country, militant Muslims and we can't trust them and we won't even [00:34:00] extend them fundamental human rights of due process. We still have people in Guantanamo jail. Here we are, you know, 19 years after 2000 and one, and we still hold them without hearing or trial and why do we do it?

[00:34:17] We would never hold white Westerners in a jail like that because we view them as fundamentally different, lesser, not fully made in the image of God. So both groups, both the left and the right, suffer from this malaise, from this blindness about the teachings of human nature that are given to us both in God's written word, but I think also in his book of nature and that we need to take more seriously and that we have to grapple with philosophy and put a proper understanding of human nature back into the center of it.

[00:34:52] Kendra Arsenault: [00:34:52] So for those who are wanting to learn more about this topic, what are some books that you can direct them to read?

[00:34:59] Nick Miller: [00:34:59] Well, you could [00:35:00] get my book, the reformation and the remnant, which Pacific press sells, and it sort of puts some of these ideas into the theological history and context of the Adventist church. There's another very brilliant author on all of this, of course, is CS Lewis.

[00:35:17] Who's the Christian thinker who wrote mere Christianity, which is a good place to start for his thoughts about Christianity and the moral philosophical foundations of a belief in a God and a belief in Christ and the Bible. And then also his book, which is a little more philosophical, the abolition of man.

[00:35:39] Which talks specifically about these concepts of human nature that I've been referring to, and he really diagnosis, I mean, it's written 75 years ago at this point, but Europe was a bit ahead of the curve from where America was in the rise of postmodernism. And really what he's writing just resonates so strongly today with both the [00:36:00] problems on the right and the left.

[00:36:01] He saw it in the communists and the socialists, which he might say are the democratic left wing side and the fascists of his day. And we are developing those two extremes. And his diagnosis is very important. If I was to speak of a more modern author, Jordan Peterson is not a Christian, per se, but he is, reads the Bible very seriously, and he's a very brilliant psychologist sociologist from Canada. Has a book called 12 rules, 12 rules for living, I think. And I think he gets at some of the problems and the malaise that we face.

[00:36:37] So he's kind of a voice supporting my point that this is about moral philosophy, not just about scriptural insight. Like my book is about. Christian theology and CS Lewis writes as a Christian theologian, but Jordan Peterson writes as kind of a secular philosopher who's now grown very sympathetic to Christianity and even the Bible and the teachings of Christ, but he's seeing these things.

[00:36:56] And it supports my point that it's about moral philosophy, that [00:37:00] smart people who look at nature and use reason should be able to see these same truths.

[00:37:05] Kendra Arsenault: [00:37:05] What about, and I haven't read this. One of the speakers who were here, just politics?

[00:37:09] Nick Miller: [00:37:09] So if you're looking for another Christian book, Ron Cider, does a great book about the politics of the Bible and Jesus called just politics. Cider is a Mennonite. I use his book in my class. I think he's the closest to a biblical perspective of what the Bible says about the way we should approach economics and social issues. I find a lot of resonance between what he writes and what Ellen white writes in patriarchs and prophets.

[00:37:37] He has a whole couple of chapters on treating the poor and the economy of ancient Israel. The Jubilees and the gleanings and the offerings for the poor. And the fair treatment of immigrants, all things which are very relevant today, at least the principles of them. And a lot of people want to discount that. That was under a theocracy. And Ellen white says, if these principles were in place today, [00:38:00] it would make governments much fairer and the gap between rich and poor would decline.

[00:38:07] Kendra Arsenault: [00:38:07] We're so glad you joined us this week. As we continue our discussion with Dr. Nicholas Miller on the intersectionality of faith and politics, we hope this program was informative, but more importantly that it gave you tools to begin to critically think about your relationship with politics as a Christian.

[00:38:23] Our recommended reading for last week was Dr Miller's book, The reformation and the remnant. Another recommendation for this week is Ron Cider's book, just politics. We want to thank the Adventist learning community for making this program possible as well as our guest Dr. Nicholas Miller. If you're not already following us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, be sure to do so at the handle at Advent Next. Thanks so much for listening in and see you next week.

 

History of the Separation of Church & State (Dr. Nick Miller)

Welcome back to Advent Next a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week our guest is Dr. Nicholas Miller professor of Church History at Andrews University. He received his J.D. from Columbia University and his phd in American Religious and Legal History from the University of Notre Dame. This week are exploring the intersectionality of faith and politics along with the history of the separation of church and state. We will also be exploring a new concept called Moral Philosophy, a lost art once used to create moral arguments and standards that could be applied in the public sphere without infringing upon the Church and State ethic of separation. A recommended reading this week would be his book, The Reformation and the Remnant, which touches on a few of the issues we discuss here today.. If you’re not already following us on Facebook, Instagram or Youtube, be sure to find us at the handle Advent Next. I’m your host Kendra Arsenault and this is Advent Next.

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

 

Nick Miller - Episode 1

[00:00:00] Nick Miller: [00:00:00] If you want to reach people who don't believe the Bible, you can't just teach from the Bible, right? You have to explain. You have to build a bridge to the Bible. You have to say why things those people understand about morality should cause them to look at the teachings of scripture. So you can't really do evangelism and apologetics well without some conception of moral philosophy and the natural law.

[00:00:22] Two: it also provided a vehicle for Christians to be actively involved in the public square, because you can't just take your biblical teachings and say, well, the Bible says, keep the Sabbath day, therefore everyone should keep it. No. You have to translate biblical teachings about alcohol or about slavery into the language of common moral philosophy that can serve as the basis of laws and our pioneers did that and they did it very effectively.

[00:00:49] Kendra Arsenault: [00:00:49] Welcome back to Advent Next, a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions. This week, our guest is Dr. Nicholas Miller, professor of church history at Andrews university. [00:01:00] He received his JD from Columbia university and his PhD in American religious and legal history from the university of Notre Dame.

[00:01:07] This week, we are exploring the intersectionality of faith and politics along with the history of the separation of church and state. We'll also be exploring a new concept called moral philosophy. A lost art once used to create moral aurguments and standards that could be applied in the public sphere without infringing upon the church and state ethical separation.

[00:01:28] A recommended reading for this week would be his book, the reformation, and the remnant, which touches on a few of the issues we're going to discuss here today. If you're not already following us on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube, be sure to find us at the handle at Advent Next. I'm your host Kendra Arsenault, and this is Advent Next.

[00:01:46] Nick Miller: [00:01:46] I started out in England where I was born, but came at a very young age, California, where I grew up. My father worked for the church as an auditor, wasn't a pastor. He worked on the financial side, [00:02:00] and when I was 16 or 17 I had a conversion experience and developed a strong interest in studying the Bible and the spirit of prophecy.

[00:02:10] And, uh, went to college, went to college at PUC, and um, decided to study theology, though I didn't necessarily feel called to the pastoral ministry. I had interest in law and medicine and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but you could be premed and pre law and study a substantive degree of something else.

[00:02:30] Right? So I took theology and uh, during that time, I developed an interest, especially in the study of history and church history and religious liberty and church and state. And so at that time I dropped my premed studies and decided I wanted to prepare myself for religious Liberty work of some kind.

[00:02:49] And so I knew that I'd probably do well in that field. A legal background would be good. And so I...The doors opened and I think the Lord led me [00:03:00] to study law in New York City. I was at Columbia university after PUC. It was quite a,

[00:03:06] Kendra Arsenault: [00:03:06] Change of pace.

[00:03:07] Nick Miller: [00:03:07] Quite a transition. At the same time, I left PUC and went to law school, my parents moved from Southern California to Africa, to work for the church there. But I think I had the bigger culture shock going from Napa Valley PUC to Manhattan, upper West side Harlem, and uh, but it was a great experience and I learned a lot and grew a lot, was involved in my local church there. Then I got a job in the legal world.

[00:03:33] I knew I needed to get some experience. I worked for some big firms. I worked for the government. But the consistent theme was I was able to work in places that dealt with constitutional issues. Some of it, freedom of the press, first amendment, uh, when I was with the government, constitutional litigation, defending public officials from constitutional tort claims.

[00:03:54] Kendra Arsenault: [00:03:54] Gotcha.

[00:03:55] Nick Miller: [00:03:55] And then I was approached by a church state organization, and I [00:04:00] ran a, I was the executive director of the council on religious freedom, which did religious freedom advocacy in Washington, DC and I got to lobby for legislation on Capitol Hill. Matt, we had a case that went to the Supreme court, got to appear there in a church state case.

[00:04:19] Kendra Arsenault: [00:04:19] Now, what was that case? And what's the difference between, you know, Religious Liberty and maybe trying to bring your religious norms into kind of the public arena?

[00:04:29] Nick Miller: [00:04:29] Okay, good questions. Advanced questions. We can, we can go there. Um, so the case I was involved with was actually an establishment clause case, and it was an attempt to prevent government funds being used to promote religion.

[00:04:45] We represented a couple of Catholic ladies, uh, at down from Louisiana who were complaining that state funds were going to Catholic schools and the Catholics were compromising their religion to receive them. Taking [00:05:00] crucifixes down from classrooms, um, minimizing their religious teaching. And they felt that this government money shouldn't be going to these Catholic schools because A, it was government money advancing religion, and B, it was kind of corrupting the religion.

[00:05:13] Kendra Arsenault: [00:05:13] Wow. So they were Catholic nuns.

[00:05:15] Nick Miller: [00:05:15] Well, they weren't nuns, but they were Catholic members of the Catholic church ladies who were, who were committed Catholics and were doing it for religious freedom purposes cause the separation of church and state is as much to advance religious freedom as the free exercise clause. It just operates in a slightly different way.

[00:05:35] So, um, we did that case, which we technically lost, but, um, the court did not grant the other side it's broad argument that would have essentially done away with the separation of church and state. So it was a technical loss, but a kind of victory in terms of maintaining a somewhat healthy, establish a separation of church and state.

[00:06:00] [00:06:00] And, uh, then I also got to the white house in the oval office, bill signing ceremony because I was part of a group that helped pass the religious land use and institutionalized persons act, which protects churches and religious institutions in their use of land and property. So all during this time, I enjoyed my Washington experience and the advocacy that went on there.

[00:06:22] But as I looked around and I said, what do I want to be doing 20 years from now? I could see that litigation was kind of awaring life of a one battle to another battle, and I enjoyed it, but did I want to do that forever? And I could see that lobbying on Capitol Hill was something like a popularity contest.

[00:06:39] Can I bring the most influence to bear? And both of those things are worthwhile. And I'm just, I'm not saying they shouldn't be done in more power to the people that do them, but I was particularly interested in the contributions that academics were making. Scholars would come to town and I could see that a lot of the conflicts in church and state had to do with historical ignorance.

[00:07:00] [00:07:00] Um. Most people didn't know that the separation of church and state had roots in deeply religious thought. They viewed it as a secular enlightenment idea. And...

[00:07:11] Kendra Arsenault: [00:07:11] Can you touch on that a little bit cause I think some of our audience might also think that church and state, the separation of church and state was more of a secular idea than a religious one.

[00:07:22] Nick Miller: [00:07:22] So that was widely held view in Washington. And uh, I was surprised because, um, you know, we know about Roger Williams and as Adventists, we read the great controversy, and so we actually have more awareness than many Christians of the religious background to these ideas. But I could see that, that had been lost sight of to a great degree, and that you could make a contribution in scholarship.

[00:07:45] If you could bring that to light for contemporary society. And so I began to develop an ambition to do further advanced study in church and state. You know, I'd studied theology and I'd studied law, [00:08:00] but I hadn't really studied church history in great depth. And so I began to look for opportunities to get an advanced degree in church history.

[00:08:10] And, um, it didn't happen for a few years. I moved out to California, sort of a long story, and I was practicing law there, but eventually seminary... seminary professors knew me from my writing for Liberty magazine and other things I'd done. And they thought that it would be a good time for Adventists to contribute in this church state arena.

[00:08:30] And so Andrews approached me about helping them start a church state study center or Institute. And if I would do that, they would sponsor me for a PhD in American religious history.

[00:08:45] Kendra Arsenault: [00:08:45] Interesting.

[00:08:46] Nick Miller: [00:08:46] And so that's what I did.

[00:08:47] Kendra Arsenault: [00:08:47] Because I think the setting of church and state is pretty fascinating. Um, and what was something that you kind of discovered in your journey of understanding the separation between church and state, and what are things that you feel like [00:09:00] people should know, uh, that we're not really educated in?

[00:09:04] Nick Miller: [00:09:04] Okay. So, um, I wasn't surprised. So going in, I had thought that religion had something to do with the separation of church and state. There was this whole Baptist tradition and Roger Williams, and so I knew where to look. For some ideas and information. In fact, I went in thinking I might do a biography of William Penn because I always thought he was an important person.

[00:09:30] Um, Roger Williams was up in the icy cold wilderness of Rhode Island, whereas William Penn founded Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, which becomes very quickly the most influential city in the colonies. And Pennsylvania always has a separation of church and state, more pure than Rhode Island's. And it's at the center of influence.

[00:09:53] And I began to believe that that William Penn had a much greater role. So I began looking back in [00:10:00] history and looking for the roots of this. And what I found was very exciting for us as Adventists especially.

[00:10:07] I came across a line of ideas an argument that were shared by writers through generations that argued for the separation of church and state based on the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. The equality of all believers meant not only, we tend to think of it, priesthood of believers is, and we can pray to God. We don't have to pray through a priest, and that's part of it.

[00:10:33] But the other part of it is the freedom to study and interpret the Bible for yourself. And this meant that if you take that idea seriously, that, um, you can't have a legislature making religious laws because then a legislature, a political body has to interpret the Bible and apply it for you. And that intervenes, it cuts across this notion of the individual believers studying his or her Bible [00:11:00] before God and being accountable to God themselves. And I found this going all the way back to Martin Luther and Martin Luther is misunderstood by most people because in early Luther, he had this robust notion of the priesthood of believers, and he tied it specifically to the need for the civil magistrate to stay out of saying what was heresy, enforcing religious ideas with a stored.

[00:11:22] He had a very strong teaching of the two kingdoms, the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth, and the civil rulers should only be involved in temporal matters regarding peace and safety of the state. Now, what happened? And, and, and then the church would worry about spiritual things, but they shouldn't use the weapons of this world.

[00:11:39] They can only use persuasion very clearly laid out in early Luther. But what happens is early Luther kind of changes, he evolves or devolves to the uprising of the peasants in 1525 the ignorance of the people. Made him believe that you couldn't safely give religious freedom because [00:12:00] people were too ignorant to use it wisely.

[00:12:02] And that the only educated people were the princes and peoples in, uh, the scholars in princes courts. And so they needed to rely on the state. But he, he shifts his position and it obscures his earlier position. Which is picked up by the Anabaptists and other believers and taken, well, first to Holland, and then the, um, British pilgrims come over to Holland and they're influenced, and this is the start of many of the Baptists who believe in freedom of the will, adult baptism and the separation of church and state.

[00:12:35] Kendra Arsenault: [00:12:35] Okay.

[00:12:36] Nick Miller: [00:12:36] And so I was able to publish, write a dissertation that was accepted by the University of Notre Dame, which is not known for its, uh, you know, strong Protestant views. Although most of my teachers, there were actually Protestants, um, and eventually published by the Oxford university press. So it was an idea that the secular scholarly world [00:13:00] found authentic and credible. And yet it puts at the center of the story of the disestablishment, and you can trace it all the way down to James Madison, who is quoting and using the language of these early Baptists about soul freedom. About. Uh, interpreting scripture and the need to do it personally and privately.

[00:13:19] So it puts the argument for separation, uh, not only in the religious arena, but in the, you know, conservative, biblical theological ideas in the religious arena. So it's not a skeptical enlightenment idea or only a liberal Christian idea. It goes right to the core of Protestant biblical understanding.

[00:13:39] Kendra Arsenault: [00:13:39] And it's interesting, and I've, and maybe you can help shed some light on this because depending on where you find your lineage, right?  Uh, whether it's a Baptist or a Puritan or Anglican lineage, they all had their own ideas of church and state, right? So you had like puritanism coming from Calvinism and they had more of a,  more of an integrated [00:14:00] view.

[00:14:00] Nick Miller: [00:14:00] That's right. Yes. And that's what drives a lot of the current day arguments, because you can go back to early America and you can find quotes from founders that seem to support that this is a Christian nation and we need God at the center of it.

[00:14:14] And, and you know, politics and Christianity need to mix. And those ideas were there and the Puritans carried them out. But what people need to understand is that, yeah, there were all, there were these competing views, but when it came time to frame our constitution, we very clearly and deliberately chose the view held by the Anabaptist tradition and William Penn and Roger Williams. So there are these other voices, but they were on the losing side and we rejected them for a reason. So let's not confuse history and say, cite voices from the losing side as though that represents the nation we became.

[00:14:53] Kendra Arsenault: [00:14:53] You know, you just held the, the Jesus and politics conference here in Andrews University.

[00:14:57]Nick Miller: [00:14:57] Right?

[00:14:57] Kendra Arsenault: [00:14:57] And what are some things that you're wanting [00:15:00] to bring to that conversation that you feel like, how do we navigate this? I feel like a lot of Christians are a little bit tentative about having their faith and their, uh, kind of their political involvement united. So what are some things that you want to bring out of that conversation?

[00:15:15] Nick Miller: [00:15:15] Well, part of it is what I've just stated already is that separation of church and state is not an imposition of the enlightenment on Christian America. It comes from the heart of Christian America, but you can go to an extreme in the other direction as well. And so in fact, our church in the 20th century seems to have gotten caught up in saying yes, separation of church and state.

[00:15:38] So as Christians, we should have nothing to do. With politics, with the public sphere, with morality in, um, government policy, we should just stay quiet. And that's not what our founders of our country, our founders of our church believed about the separation of church and state. They believe there should be an institutional separation.

[00:15:59] [00:16:00] Yes. They also believe that the state shouldn't enforce, the specifically religious ideas of the church. But, um, some went further and said, separation of church and state essentially means the separation of morality in the state. And this was driven in good part by Christians in the South. And it arose from a particular historical set of circumstances revolving around slavery.

[00:16:27] The southerners loved their slavery. It was a center of their industry and economies, and they didn't want abolitionists and Christians criticizing it. And so they took the notion of the separation of church and state, and they made it a doctrine of the separation of morality in the state so that the church, not only did it have to stay separate and apart institutionally from the state and not impose its doctrines on the state, it had to keep quiet about moral issues in the state, [00:17:00] and therefore it couldn't, shouldn't would be the teaching, um, argue against slavery. And after slavery was gone, it shouldn't have things to say about discrimination in Jim Crow. Now, our pioneers. The Adventist pioneers came from the North and they didn't have this view.

[00:17:17] They believe in the separation of church and state quite strongly in the institutional and in doctrinal sense, but they didn't believe that this church or church members should stay quiet in the face of public immorality and the mistreatment of humanity. And so they would rally and they were very much involved in the abolitionist movement and the temperance reform movement seeking to either oppose and disobeyed laws that protected slavery or seeking to pass laws that would protect women and children from the abuses and ravages of alcohol.

[00:17:51] So, the, you mentioned the conference we had Jesus and politics. It was an attempt. To, to [00:18:00] help define a middle way between these two extremes.

[00:18:02] Kendra Arsenault: [00:18:02] Yeah. You kind of have to have a lawyer's brain to understand, you know, what territory can I, can I enter into and what territory should I stay out of? And I think finding that line and that delineation is sometimes difficult just for the lay member to be able to find.

[00:18:17]Nick Miller: [00:18:17] It's difficult for all of us, but, um, but it's important and it's not impossible in our, our pioneers who... almost all of them were not even college educated, much, much less graduate school level educated or advanced law degrees.

[00:18:33] They, they did a, quite a good job. Um, because they held to some principles that, that we've lost sight of involving general and special revelation, um, that there are truths that the Bible gives you only and that, that we call the Bible special revelation, and that these you apprehend by faith and therefore it's not appropriate to impose those through civil [00:19:00] law on a society which is filled with people who don't have faith, faith, and non-faith.

[00:19:05] Whereas general revelation are those truths about human nature and morality that everyone can apprehend through the use of reason and common sense and intuition, and that therefore you can build moral laws based on that other book of revelation. And we've lost sort of sight of the difference of those two books and how they relate to each other.

[00:19:27] And it, it relates to a word you mentioned earlier, moral philosophy. We used to have a robust conception, uh, as Christian, Protestant Christians that there were, was a world of morality that you could understand outside the Bible, and that this was a shared world with other citizens and that you could argue for and build a public policy that was more just and more fair.

[00:19:50] Um, and than slavery and other abuses and, but modern day  in the 20th century, many Christians came to believe you [00:20:00] could really only get your morality from the Bible and that you were limited to that, and they abandoned this field of moral philosophy that our finding pioneers found so important, and they built up a morality on the Bible, which was maybe adequate for their purposes inside the church, but which could have no influence on the public square in their involvement as Christian citizens.

[00:20:24] Kendra Arsenault: [00:20:24] Let's, let's talk a little bit about, and kind of a little bit of a history of moral philosophy and to kind of the emergence of that and the importance of that. I know that we divvied into that, but maybe kind of getting a little more specific about what does that really mean? Cause that might be a new term for a lot of people listening in.

[00:20:41] Nick Miller: [00:20:41] Right. So, I should be prepared for this. As I just finished teaching a course on the history of moral philosophy and natural theology was the, was the other part of it, and the two are related. Moral philosophy tends to look at the world around us. And what we can understand through reason and [00:21:00] examining humans and human behavior and human history.

[00:21:04] Um, natural theology is more of the vertical, what we can understand about the divine through an examination of the created world and the things that he's made. Um, and both of these traditions go back thousands of years and, uh, into the Greek and Roman era before Christ. And if you think about it, by definition, they would need to, I mean it; the claim of natural law and the moral philosophy is that humans can have some sense of right and wrong from their experiences in the world, and God has laid like an open book, the book of nature, we call it. And if that's true, then you should be able to look in all cultures and all places and see that humans had some sense of this. And lo and behold, we do.

[00:21:49] Um, C S Lewis famously talks about this in his book, the abolition of men, uh, where he defends notions of the natural law in the [00:22:00] 20th century that has mostly lost sight of it. And as part of doing it, he gives it a name and he doesn't give it the name natural law. He gives it a name from the East. The Tao.

[00:22:09] T-A-O. Right? Dow to how. And his point is that Confucianism and the Eastern religions also had this conception of higher standards of right and wrong and justice. And by using the word Tao, he's showing that this isn't just a Western invention. That it's cross culture and cross time. But there was certainly a Western tradition of it.

[00:22:32] And we can look back at our own roots to the Stoics, uh, philosophers who talked about natural law, Cicero, the Roman, a thinker and philosopher. And it's reflected in the writings of Paul. So if you go to Romans chapters one and two, it talks about nature, uh, in the passage on that involves sexuality.

[00:22:53] So clearly Paul is echoing, but he's placing it more firmly in creation. Plato has this [00:23:00] notion of the eternal universe and the the heavenly realm of the ideal forms. Paul understands that there was a beginning of creation, but that God put into this creation a moral framework that nature itself reflects.

[00:23:15] And so it was a fairly common theme through the, the early church, but there's always swings between kind of scripturalist Biblicism versus natural reason, a natural law, and you can go wrong by going too far in either direction, right? If you put natural law and reason and kind of ignore scripture, then you lose out on the important divine insights that scripture gives.

[00:23:46] But if you go too far over to Biblicism, you lose the materials that attach the truths of scripture to the practical realities of the world around you. And so in the middle ages, you have some of this [00:24:00] back and forth and the um reformers came along, Protestant reformers, and they tended to need to swing it back towards the biblical side because the medieval church had been very much over in this kind of reason.

[00:24:12] And scholasticism and making the Bible correspond with Plato and Aristotle, and Luther and Calvin Sola scriptura, right, is the cry that they came with. But even they understood that Sola scriptura didn't work in a vacuum,

[00:24:28] Kendra Arsenault: [00:24:28] Right.

[00:24:29] Nick Miller: [00:24:29] And that there were teachings of nature and, and history and even tradition that helped informed Bible study and they believe certainly in a natural law that the princes would use to pass laws, and there was a robust tradition of natural law. Hugo Grotius was probably the great articulator of natural law. Um, in creating rules for nations internationally. In fact, even the today, the international law society is known as the [00:25:00] Hugo Grotius society, and he was a follower of Jacob Arminius, the famous freewill theologian. And he based his notions of natural law on Arminius' idea that God has given us a free will, and that he's also given us a capacity to see and understand right and wrong in the world around us to exercise that will on. And so, um, he said, look, if this is the case, then we don't just have to look at the parliament to see what the law is. Cause this was the problem of the law in the seas, right.

[00:25:31] When you went out on the high seas and there was no court or legislature, what was the law? And Grotius said, well, God has given us minds and reason and these principles that we can use to create rules for international engagement and, and laws on the sea. And he was a deeply religious man in doing this, and it was aided by his theological insights that we've lost sight of that today.

[00:25:55] Um, and so there was this proud Protestant tradition of up to [00:26:00] Ellen White who said, we have to study moral philosophy for three reasons, actually. Um, and they're all important. One, you had to study it because if you want to reach people who don't believe the Bible. You can't just teach from the Bible, right?

[00:26:15] You have to explain, you have to build a bridge to the Bible. You have to say why things those people understand about morality should cause them to look at the teachings of scripture. So you can't really do evangelism and apologetics well without some conception of moral philosophy and the natural law.

[00:26:32] Two: it also provided a vehicle for Christians to be actively involved in the public square.

[00:26:37] Kendra Arsenault: [00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:38] Nick Miller: [00:26:38] Cause you can't just take your biblical teachings and say, well the Bible says keep the Sabbath day, therefore everyone should keep it. No. You have to translate biblical teachings about alcohol or about slavery into the language of common moral philosophy that can serve as the basis of, of laws.

[00:26:55] And our pioneers did that and they did it very effectively. And the third thing it does, and [00:27:00] this is less obvious, but um, it enables you to interpret the Bible more clearly and correctly. So an obvious example is prophecy. You really can't understand prophecy just from the Bible alone, right? You have to go and look at history and the events of the past to match up the events and the dates.

[00:27:19] And so that's one obvious example, but another example are teaching the parables of Jesus. He's teaching spiritual lessons. But if you don't know what fishermen do and lost coins are like, and what the harvester does and the meaning of that; Christ in a sense, is doing the kind of natural theology, a moral philosophy, using lessons from nature.

[00:27:43] And it seems true that when people stop using moral philosophy to inform their biblical study, their biblical ethics goes really wrong.

[00:27:52] Kendra Arsenault: [00:27:52] And that's pretty much what happened during the turn of the century, during the turn of the 20th century, right, that there was a return back to [00:28:00] fundamentalism, Sola scriptura, and basically, and you can probably explain this better than I can, but there was the rise of Darwinism.

[00:28:08] And so in order to kind of defend the original creation account, that they began to become very more fundamentalistic in their interpretation and kind of reason and moral philosophy kind of got the boot.

[00:28:19] Nick Miller: [00:28:19] Good. That's a very excellent summary. I've been an okay teacher. Um, yeah. Very well put. And, and I would just add to that, that at the time of the civil war, before and after it, some of the staunchest defenders of slavery were the people who insisted most strongly on Sola scriptura. We can only get our morality from the Bible. Since the Bible doesn't have an explicit text, um, condemning slavery, then neither can we condemn it. But our pioneers said, no, we can take biblical principles of human equality and fair treatment and, and the philosophy of all humans made in the image of God.

[00:28:59] And we can [00:29:00] condemn slavery and we can, in fact, Ellen white herself said that those who support slavery should not be church members. So this combination of moral philosophy and biblical teaching. Is necessary to keep the Bible connected with contemporary issues. And as you've noted, at the beginning of the 20th century, Ellen white died and she'd been the sign of balancing influence in the church and Christianity split between liberalism on one hand and fundamentalism on the other.

[00:29:30] Well, Adventists were kind of in the middle, but they knew they weren't liberals because they believed in inspiration and the virgin birth and the resurrection and all those things and miracles, and so they felt naturally inclined to follow the fundamentalists. And we tended to do that. And they believe, not in what I call Sola scriptura, but something else.

[00:29:49] Solo scriptura, Sola scriptura means by scripture alone, meaning that it's scripture is the highest authority, but there's other authorities that you measure by [00:30:00] scripture. Solo scriptura is, it's only the Bible, and that's all we're going to look at and so Adventism fell into this rather impoverished ethical world after the 1920s looking only at the plain reading of scripture, not the plain meaning. I'm supportive of that, but the plane reading is looking at the surface language of scripture. And if it doesn't condemn the particular act, then we won't either. And so the civil rights movement came along and we felt this was a political thing and the Bible didn't speak about this, and therefore we needed to stay out of it.

[00:30:35] And, and we had a teaching for our church internally. But we didn't have the language to communicate it in these broader moral philosophy notions. And so we were almost entirely absent from that. And it's affected our evangelism as well. I mean, it's an open secret that Adventism in the Western world, industrialized West.

[00:30:54] It's not really growing. You know, we're having some conversions, but it's not really keeping up with the death rate. The reason [00:31:00] the church is growing is because, um, immigrants are coming from overseas where our evangelism still does work successfully because it's in supernaturalistic cultures that believe in God and miracles and spirits.

[00:31:14] Kendra Arsenault: [00:31:14] It's true.

[00:31:14] Nick Miller: [00:31:14] And we have a good framework for that. But when you're dealing with a secular world, our rejection of moral philosophy or maybe our ignorance of it... At this point, people maybe aren't intentionally rejecting it, is making our evangelism much less effective than it could be or should be.

[00:31:33] Kendra Arsenault: [00:31:33] We're so glad you joined us this week as we explore the intersectionality of faith and politics. Stay tuned for next week as we look at some practical applications of moral philosophy, tackling some. fun issues like what should the extent of our persuasion versus legislation be when it comes to issues like substance usage such as marijuana.

[00:31:54] We have a pretty lively discussion that brings out some out of the box insights you don't want to miss. [00:32:00] Once again, our recommended reading for this week is his book, the Reformation and the Remnant. We want to thank the Adventist learning community for making this program possible. As well as our guest, Dr. Nicholas Miller. If you're not already following us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, be sure to do so at the handle at Advent Next. Thanks so much for tuning in. See you next week.

 

How God Affirms the Call to Ministry (Dr. Carlton Byrd)

Join Advent Next this week as we talk with Carlton Byrd on the call to ministry exploring the challenges as well as the rewards of what it means to work in the master's vineyard. 

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT Dr. Carlton Byrd:

Michelle Odinma: So we've talked about evangelism and you know, doing the mission you put on the programs, you do all this. And then what about retention? Because that's been a big issue for a lot of people from North American division pastors. How do you maintain or keep all of those people who stood up and came forward to make commitment?

Carlton Byrd: I think the same emphasis that we have on recruitment, we must have on retention. So the same level of intent, intentionality with resources, money, people and the level of engagement. We have to do that with retention. And that [00:02:00] requires work. That requires with evangelists and the Bible workers and the team are gone, that the church has to engage in that same level of, of commitment that was given to recruitment with retention.

So with that, that means visitation has to continue. Programming has to continue and it has to continue with the level of excellence that proceeded it. Okay. It has to, so the same way we were intentional about children's ministries during the public evangelistic campaign. We have to be intentional about that post the campaign.

The visitation, as I said, the music, as I said, the technology, right? We can't be afraid to resource these things.

Kendra Arsenault: Right. What were those three things that you mentioned that we need to have like a, this, you know, people need to want to come.

Carlton Byrd: Okay. [00:03:00] So I was reading a book and, um, if worship, you know, we talked about post the campaign. Sure. If worship is to contribute to the growth of your church, three things must be true. Number one, members have to want to attend. If members don't want to be there, why would anyone else, and for me, the litmus test for me has always been my family. If my wife, if our kids, if they don't want to be there, then probably, yeah.

The members don't want to be, you follow what I'm saying? I mean, we can do technology. We can do all different things. We can pass out handbills what we used to do years ago, or flyers about our church and whatnot, but, but if your people don't want to be there, why would anyone else. Number two, your members have to be proud to invite guests. Okay. So members have and the members have to want to invite others to what's in a, so word of mouth. You know, [00:04:00] when we moved to a city, yeah. We can go online and we will look at the area. We can look at school districts, we can look at houses, you know, with, with real estate books or online catalogs or whatever you want to call it.

But the greatest impact on where we live, when we moved to a city is a word of mouth testimony. If we know someone in that city and they tell us, this is a good area, this is a good house, we're gonna weigh that more heavily. So the same is true with church. If members are proud to invite their friends, then you got to come to my church.

You've got to hear my pastor, hear our music, see our ministry offerings. That is going to weigh more heavily. Yeah. Then if someone just reads about it. So number one, members have to want to attend. Number two, they have to be proud to invite guests. And so often in our churches, yeah, but don't come this week, this one speaking, don't come this week, tis one singer, Oh, I don't want you to come.

No. Every time the doors [00:05:00] open, it has to be assessed. So to the original question, how do we retain people the same way we were intentional about recruiting people. We have to have that with retention of people. Okay. And then thirdly, whoever attends is eager to return. Yeah. Okay. So those three things I think are critical, and that's in my book.

Yeah. Those two things are critical in terms of the retention of people. So after the same way, we were like, you've got to come, members are excited about coming to the public evangelistic campaign. Then, that same way they're excited about coming to church the same way they were willing to invite people to come to the campaign.

They're willing to invite people to come to church, and then whoever comes is eager to return. 

The Call To Ministry (Dr. Carlton Byrd)

Join Advent Next This week as we talk with Carlton Byrd on the call to ministry exploring the challenges as well as the rewards of what it means to work in the master's vineyard. 

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT Dr. Carlton Byrd:

Carlton Byrd: My father is a pastor, retired Adventist pastor. And so I grew up where annually there was some form of public evangelism. So whether that was a prophecy class, the prophesy seminar, back in those days, a tent.

So tent evangelism, I grew up. That this is a part of who we are. So that was placed in my DNA, my mother's side, even, you know, evangelistic meetings, tent revivals. Yeah. So that's a part of who I am. So therefore, when I, you know, accepted the call from God for ministry, a major part of that was leading other people [00:02:00] to Christ.

And I praise God for that because I believe that, um. The Lord in every evangelistic initiative, other people aren't getting saved, but I'm getting saved all over again, and I believe he has me in his word because he is trying to save me. So for me, it's, it's who I am. It's who I am. So. That's the best way I can answer that.

Kendra Arsenault: You know, people who might feel discouraged in their local churches or somebody who's really on fire, but they're not really seeing the results that they think they should , what kind of encourage would you...

Carlton Byrd: Stay faithful. God rewards faithfulness and let, let me be clear. Let me just tell you a little story.

If I may. Um, I've told this before, but you know, everyone thinks Oh, Carlton Byrd. Hundreds, thousands being baptized. Let me tell you, when I first, uh, my first district. I was there at three church district in Southern Mississippi, Laurel, Mississippi. [00:03:00] Soso, Mississippi, Columbia, Mississippi, and I never will forget.

I conducted, I went to the Laurel church, three churches now, and the Laurel church had two members. I'm sorry. Okay. Two. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Come on. Kendra and Michelle , I'm talking about the three of us are the church. Uh, and at that time, you know, I was not married, uh, did my wife and I had not, you know, we weren't married, so I had no children.

You know, cause sometimes the pastor's family can Boost the attendance. Talking about two members and they were both over 65 years of age. I'm talking about One Sabbath I was preaching down South, worse than that. One of them lifted their hand down South. They'll lift up their hand finger. That's a way of respect saying I need to be excused.

One walked out. The other lifted up her hand. By five [00:04:00] minutes later she walked out and I'm still preaching. Oh no. To me, it's something that came back in a little later on. And so after church, after I finished preaching, I said, you know, let's have a business meeting here. I said, I need to understand why both of you walked out.

Did I say anything offensive? They're like, Oh no, pastor. We just had to go to the bathroom, you know? So we had to Institute a bathroom break. But anyway, we, we had. I had two members in that church. Okay. So everybody thinks Oh Carlton Byrd, breath of life, oakwood church. Two members. I cut the grass, painted walls. I was the janitor. I mean, okay.

Kendra Arsenault: You was the bus driver.

Carlton Byrd: So I said, we have to do some type of evangelism. So I said, Oh, these two ladies. I said, let me run a vacation Bible school. [00:05:00] And so we didn't have money, uh, because I returned My tithe and offering to that church because they needed it. And my offering pretty much kept everything. Yeah. So I said, ah, we're going to have a vacation Bible school. And so the pastor, we don't have any money and we're all, I said, don't worry about it. We're going to do it. And so I didn't have an evangelism budget, so I put my money in. I never forget, I put like $200 in for me back then.

And, uh, the conference. Director for Sabbath school of which vacation Bible school came under. I called him. I said, I need some help. Do you have anything? He said, I'll match what you've given. And so he said, me $200 so I had a budget, $400 for the vacation Bible school. So I made some flyers, and I'm not a graphic designer, but I made some flyers on my computer.

I printed them. The church didn't have a copy machine, so I [00:06:00] had to go to a Kinko's or copier and printed them. I found two young men, they may have been eight or nine, two boys in the neighborhood, and I said, listen, fellows. Here's some flyers. I want you to pass these out and pass these out and you come back to me.

I'll take you to McDonald's or I'll give you the money. I'll give you the money. That's what happened. I give you the money to go get a happy meal from McDonald's. They were excited, so I gave them the flyers to pass out. They came back to me. I gave them money for happy meal. They were excited. Opening night.

It was a Sunday evening. Opening night of Vacation Bible School, 53 children showed up. Oh my goodness. I was so excited. Those two ladies were like, pastor, what are we gonna do? We're gonna. I said, don't worry about it. I just need you to prepare the snacks. Right? And I'll do the rest. So I used to teach the songs.

Wow. Do The lesson, play kickball with them, 53 [00:07:00] kids all week long. So I said, listen, this is what we're going to do. For Sabbath. Instead of having regular church, we're going to have our vacation Bible school closing program because my goal was get all the kids there and have their parents come. Sure enough, we have vacation Bible school closed where I thought I was, you know that big church full of people.

You know the kids. I was all so excited. So all the parents came and I got all their addresses. So I say, man, this is good. Cause I said, I'm gonna conduct an evangelistic. Campaign. They said, pastor, what does that does that do with vacation Bible school. Now you're talking about an evangelist. I said, we can do it. We can do it.

Sure enough, we ran and conducted ev angelistic committee in that church with those two ladies. God blessed us. At the end of the evangelistic series, we baptized three people. Amen. Amen. So we are from two to five, praise God. Right, right, right, right. [00:08:00] So you went from two to five. So. Long story short, at the end of the year, the conference has an awards banquet for, you know, people who, you know, they give trophies and plaques away.

So the conference president gets up and he says, we now want to give the award for evangelism and we want to give the award to the past evangelists of the year of our conference. So I'm thinking I was going to be these people who baptize, you know, great numbers and whatnot. He's to say, says our pastor evangelist of the year is Carlton byrd. I'm like, what? Because he increased his membership by 150% praise God. Praise the Lord. You know? So I was excited, you know, got this plaque. I still have it to this day. Hey man. And so I'm saying a little becomes much when you place it in the master's hand. And back then it wasn't the 100 it wasn't the fifties it wasn't the a hundred and fifties it was three people.

But the Lord blessed and went from two to five and so [00:09:00] different ways, you know, from, for me to start it out, it wasn't just, I'm going to have this mean, it was vacation Bible school, right? And those ladies faith, it was rewarded. God rewards faithfulness. And so I said, you know, Lord you, if we're faithful in small things.

2019 Advent Next Recap

Wow, I can't believe the year is already over! Anyone remember our first episode? It's been a quite journey ever since! Join us this week on Advent Next, a theological podcast curated for curious faith discussions, as we recap on this year's successes, failures, and hopes for the future.

Thank you to everyone who has been a faithful supportive listener! You're amazing!

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Courage for the Artist (Jo Ann Davidson)

This week on Advent Next theological podcast, we are continuing our discussion with Dr. Jo Ann Davidson, Professor of Systematic Theology at Andrews University. Today our topic is taken from her book entitled “Towards a Theology of Beauty,” where we explore the aesthetic nature of God and how He uses beauty, creativity, and artistry to express His character and values. 

 

Today we’re exploring the topic of being both an artist and a Christian. Why is it that “artist” isn’t listed as an expression of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 11? Also, should an artist pursue their passions in a vocationally if there is no guarantee that they will be employed by the church? 

 

“It’s really sad that Christians and even Adventists don’t pay our musicians. Do you know in the Old Testament temple set up, musicians were paid from the tithe just like the priests were? So music was very important and even Hezekiah when He restored worship, he said, ‘using the instruments made by David and Nathan the prophet under the instruction of God,’ so we see [music was] very closely tied [to the temple].”

 

We continue our conversation with Dr. Davidson regarding the place of artists in the church and how God uses aesthetics to glorify and assist in the mission of evangelism. While beauty and investing in aesthetics helps others to see the value we place on the gospel truths, Dr. Jo Ann Davidson also explains that there is a limit to what beauty can accomplish. 

 

“Having an aesthetic experience is a wonderful thing, so people set that in place of a deeper relationship with God, whereas aesthetics are to help us express our adoration to God in a fuller way. It’s not something to be worshipped. It’s not religion. It’s just part of human response.”

 

Most importantly, however, we get another intimate view of God as He expresses Himself through His creation when we reflect that God is the ultimate artist. “Remeber Michael Angelo, the great sculptor? He writes about how he would go to the marble quarry and study pieces of marble and find one saying, ‘ah this one is good.’ But God goes to the human quarry and takes the rejected pieces of marble that nobody would use, and He says, ‘I can make something beautiful of this.’ What a great Artist He is. He doesn’t just need the perfect piece of marble. He takes our ashes and forms them into something beautiful.”

 

Facebook: www.Facebook.com/adventnext

Instagram: www.instagram.com/adventnext

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF6IbZ5pEYtgoWf88hb7vHQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7cdgW0RKIrny6Ru47l61CE

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/advent-next/id1452748484